Tag: cr spoilers

“Ioun is
quite a goddess though, and she doesn’t respect secrets.”

Aka yes, I
am going to be that person.

Ioun does
not like secrets. Which is why the entire quest to gain her favor involved getting
a book that was locked away. Which is why you sought her out to find out about
a ritual that had been kept secret. Which is why she locked herself away in
secrecy.

Which is
why she chose someone who quite frequently lies, deceives, and uses his
knowledge to run a criminal organization, who fucks around with memories for
personal gain or amusement as her champion. Yes. All of this adds up.

And yes, maybe I’ve spent too much time talking about this to see it clearly at this point, but like… Man. I feel like this was more due to Matt’s perception of how certain classes are supposed to be played rather than how the characters actually are played.

Yeah, sure, Bards are supposed to carry and impart knowledge and pass it on and tell your story. But as someone else aptly pointed out, Keyleth lives on to tell the story, Tary writes the Ember Island Players version, and Scanlan writes the porn parody.

The character of Scanlan as played so far is not a lore bard, he’s a troll bard. Nothing wrong with that! But also, wasn’t it part of his crisis that he always felt like the teller of stories, but never like part of it? Or is confirming the characters’ worst fears about themselves just what gods do at this point? I mean, Vex felt unworthy there for a second, and Percy has just been gobsmacked in the face by two goddesses now.

And I knoooow he seems fine. He says he’s fine. Vex says she’s fine with what Scanlan said to her before he left, too. This kind of reads the same?

And especially after Ioun just brought up redemption seconds before choosing her champion, this just… Yeah, sorry Percy, you’re unworthy of this, too, you secret keeping mad man, you. Of course Percy would take that in stride; it’s what he’s always believed about himself to begin with.

This sucks even more considering that they apparently really have to get going now. The trip to Kord was just turned down flat. No one even brought up Melora, or a suitable god for Percy. Maybe Moradin might be something to look into, but, you know, that’d be kind of weird. Taking the god of dwarves for anyone non-dwarven. I can see that work out for Grog, though, given his dwarven beard and hammer, because random loot is now totes relevant when tying people to gods.

Ugh. And I know this will be a none-issue. I knooow. Still.

And I hold that it doesn’t really fit Scanlan, either. If anything, Ioun represents what a bard is supposed to be, even though there should be a separate god for music and performance. If you wanted to make it about his character and his journey, give him a god of family or something. It’s like back when the quest for Scanlan’s vestige involved solving a riddle. Which was ultimately solved by Percy.

Also, secrets as the disqualifying thing? Just. No. I did the math. When you go by secrets, Percy and Scanlan lie and keep to themselves roughly the same amount of things. Just that most of the time, Percy has a good reason, whereas Scanlan just wants to fuck with people. Gah. I’ll probably write all of this out properly at some point, I’m just really kind of upset by this.

(Sprigg saying goodbye to Percy with the “I’m going to think of you when I read these books.” kind of moved me to tears, though. And Percy and Keyleth talking about fuck the gods and fuck destiny was perfect.)

So according to Darin, the only reason Sprigg figured he had a connection to Scanlan was because of the both being gnomes part, and halfway through he realized that the real connection was kind of happening with Keyleth. He didn’t mention Ioun once during that explanation.

Seems like we again overestimated the amount of planning Matt includes the other players in. That probably also means that the nicknames were Darin’s own opinions on the characters from the way he watched the show and don’t necessarily reflect how Matt thinks about them. Oh well. More than another week to stew on this.

The only ways I can see this having a good fall out is, one of the two halfway through the conversation with Ioun going, “Yeah, you’re great and all, but no thanks” and it being a deliberate character choice to REFUSE Ioun. Or Ioun telling Percy, “I’m flattered, but seriously, Erathis called first dibs on you when you were a kid, and I’ve already been convalescing for 800 years, I don’t want to piss her off.” Or her telling Scanlan his better-fit deity. Whoever that is.

Ha! I am on board with all of these options. Especialy with Erathis calling dibs. Yes, please.

enderon

These are all very fair points, and I will give to you.
And apart from any actual canon info argument, there are a lot of us who are pushing for Scanlan cause we really want him to actually get something in way of plot focus and backstory, whereas we’re very tired of Percy getting a lot of the spotlight and focus and aren’t really looking forward to even more characterization for him. But that’s unrelated to any argument,

  •            

    • enderon

    just part of the explanation for why so many of us are pushing for Scanlan in place of Percy

    I feel you there. Though I’d rather see Scanlan with someone who actually fits him than just who is available right now. Pigeonholing him into this is just another disservice to his character.

    An Analysis on Secrets

    spicedupdruid:

    vohalika:

    spicedupdruid:

    Sprigg, when referring to the things he might have wanted at the time of meeting them, calls Percy Secrets. As the key to Ioun, Sprigg would not want Secrets, but at the time he also didn’t want Intelligence. He wanted Power, the Power to get out of his prison, mentally of course, before he could give them Intelligence. Never at any point did he talk to Percy for a length of time unless specifically addressed by Percy, never paying mind to Secrets unless Secrets payed any attention to him. 

    Keep reading

    Oh wow, you wrote this just as I wrote the complete opposite! Cool.

    Though I have to fundamentally disagree on most of the things you say about Percy and secrets. The fact that his full name and Whitestone ever mattered that way was because the narrative caused that to happen, and once it was apparent that it was going to become relevant, he told them all he knew about it.

    Same goes for Orthax. Percy had no idea what was going on until Orthax literally appeared. Yes, the dream not being just that should have been apparent at some point. And that point was when he started smoking, the names vanished from the gun, and finally when Orthax manifested himself. All within a timespan of three days.

    And he never actively tried to conceal any of that. He just didn’t know what was going on there himself, not to mention that Orthax was also seriously affecting his mental state and judgement at the time, something he admitted to in the extent he was capable of, and asked the others to be on the look-out for.

    The point about Craven Edge is fair. That was pretty shitty of him. But that is another case in which Percy didn’t really lie when asked about it or tried to conceal anything, even bringing it up when Grog started acting strange about the skull. Also, he didn’t try to conceal it afterwards and tried to help in whatever way he could – same as Scanlan. Still, that one is fair as far as Percy being callous when it comes to knowledge is concerned.

    The marriage was not only Percy’s secret to keep. We don’t know their reasons yet. But much like his name and personal trauma, those are secrets I think everyone is entitled to keep. You don’t owe anyone insight into your personal matters.

    And you say that all of these things fucked the party over, yet the only thing Percy really is to blame for here/had any influence over was the Craven Edge situation. Whitestone could have been just as irrelevant as Scanlan’s mother’s name, depending on where the narrative took them. It wasn’t, so Percy explained it.

    The marriage reveal would have been humorous or at least not even remotely as big of a deal as it is if the plot hadn’t exploded. And it didn’t really come out during the confrontation with Pelor, that still sounded like a betrothal, it came out when Scanlan forced the issue while Percy and Vex were completely content to just not to spare Vax and Keyleth whatever pain could be spared at this point.

    So most of these things – Craven Edge excluded – were either very personal matters that Percy always did share once they became relevant, or was just simply never asked about.

    Much in the same vein as Scanlan was never asked about his secrets (until he was, repeatedly actually). We don’t know what happened pre-stream, but it sure doesn’t seem like he volunteered any information on his background or mother. NO ONE in the group did, for that matter. The twins never mentioned their mother’s connection to Thordak, Keyleth only mentioned her visions and backstory as it became relevant, and Pike was the only one who knew about Grog’s backstory in regards to Kevdak until it became relevant. Anyone’s personal business has always been shared according to a “need to know” policy.

    And if we are willing to extend this courtesy to everyone else, why not Percy?

    In addition, saying that keeping his Suude business secret didn’t affect the group is also purely circumstancial. Consuming drugs before getting into a combat situation in which other people rely on you in not a harmless secret to keep. Neither is the extent of your dealings with who you assume to be criminal drug dealers. Sure, no one died directly because of that, but taking unknown substances before a combat situation is almost as callous as handing out a speaking sword.

    And Scanlan’s secrets did harm the party, in a big way, and for a very long time. Everyone was positively devastated after he unloaded on them prior to his departure. More people were hurt when he concealed himself when he returned.

    So in that regard, I don’t think the scales are tipped in either of their favor, really. And to be fair, I think Ioun is a less than ideal fit for either of them. Erathis is better for Percy but has somehow vanished from the narrative, and there are plenty other gods and domains more fitting for Scanlan than academical knowledge. His kind of intelligence is more related to streets than to libraries.

    While I didn’t really expect this, I can’t say I’m not happy about getting a response in return. 

    I know I missed things, and might not have seen everything regarding both of them and their respective narratives. I forgot some instances of each of them doing something and kind of blanked at other things because I am honestly really shit at analyzing things. I kind of just wanted to try it out, even if I failed. 

    I feel as though Erathis is either not a god here at all, or she is Ioun. Thats the only vibe im getting, but usually I tend to be wrong. 

    I don’t really have anything to debate you with right now, I’m just happy to have gotten some form of debate and a deeper analysis of both people as well as the group on things. 

    I kind of just want Ioun to choose, since she is injured and the most in danger if she gives someone her power. I want a god to actually have a choice, interestingly enough, because Pelor was impassive and creepy. 

    Yay, I’m happy to get responses as well 🙂 especially when they are actually civil.

    And I don’t think you fail at analysis at all, we just have different points of view on this issue.

    Erathis was mentioned as a goddess, she’s the one Keeper Yennen is a priest to (The Lady’s Chamber temple), but the fact that she was brought up so little that you assumed her and Ioun were the same person is kind of the reason I don’t think she’s going to matter in this arc. If she does, I’m all for it.

    And yes, choosing would be nice. Pelor was… I mean, I will defend Vex as his champion with my dying breath, but that was mostly a result of her never getting a character arc herself and this is the best she got. Well. And the fact that shitty, disapproving father figures are kind of her thing. What a great theme that is.

    Except that Ioun isn’t about ‘academic knowledge and libraries’, she’s about knowledge and truths and sharing that knowledge out to the world, making at accessable for everyone, which is what bards do, the story telling of bards actually being the original way to share knowledge before books became a big thing. And Percy isn’t one to ‘share’ his knowledge, for very good reason he mostly keeps what he knows and has learned to himself rather than sharing.

  •            

    • enderon

    And also, yes, Sprigg’s focus on Scanlan is very important, as things like that don’t just happen for no reason, not in this story. The connection there is less about Sprigg being left alone, but that emphasis that he RAN AWAY and his companions suffered for it, something we know Scanlan feels guilty for doing, also the tidbit about Sprigg’s companion being killed by hobgoblins, a little parallel to Scanlan’s own mother being killed by goblins,

  •          

    • enderon

    a moment that severely messed him up. Also, Scanlan isn’t an idiot. Percy is the ‘smart one’, but there have been many times where Scanlan has been called to for information because, as an older, wl traveled bard, he has quite a lot of worldly knowledge. And this is not the only time Scanlan has used his Ioun stone. He used it before to find Kamaljiori, a server of Ioun, who also, lo and behold, was the one that gave them Mythcarver, the vestige that Scanlan uses.

    Ioun isn’t exactly the goddess of streetsmarts either. Scanlan is knowledgable, but as a traveller rather than a scholar. Any time he was called upon for a knowledge roll, he knew stuff because he picked it up here and there, not because he actively went out looking for it.

    His way of being a bard is also usually more about being an entertainer, singing and performing, rather than sharing stories. That’s also not what Dr. Dranzel’s troupe seemed to be doing. And the entertainment part of Bard-dom has an entirely different deity assigned to it. Or should have, at least. As I mentioned, the amount of gods mentioned in the story is very slim compared to what is actually available in D&D.

    I also said that the parallels between Sprigg and Scanlan are very on the nose, and pointing those out is valid… I just don’t find it very compelling and almost forced, in a way. I know people feel the same way about what happened with Pelor and I disagree on that count. Now Sprigg’s performance was beautiful and the entire sequence was amazing, don’t get me wrong, but all the similarities between Scanlan and Sprigg don’t really tie into Sprigg’s connection to Ioun, either, or at least not in a way we have been told about yet.

    Yes, Sprigg is the key to her and so kind of everything about him is relevant in regards to Ioun in a way, but I don’t think the parallels between him and Scanlan are in any relation to his role as the key. The only things actively hinting at his role were what Pelor told them about (person living in the area), the fact that he had a house full of books (the contents of which he also wasn’t exactly happy to openly share with people), and seemingly a disdain for the goddess, hinting at a history with her he hasn’t talked about yet. 

    And Percy has researched things with the intent of sharing them. He was the key reasearcher and source of information when it came to the trip to the 9 hells, and his knowledge check brought them on the track towards Raishan again. He was allowed to roll for knowledge throughout the campaign just for being a nerd.

    So Scanlan used the Ioun stone once or twice, an anon said he also used it around a dragon hoard, and I think I faintly remember something like that happening when they were looking for Umbrasyl. That is literally fewer times than Pike’s armor has been activated, and that didn’t exactly make her a champion for Pelor, either. Partially because she was already taken, true, but Pelor didn’t even allude to that.

    (Scanlan just being handed his vestige by the Sphinx (whose name was, by the way, figured out by Percy) may or may not be relevant, but the fact that there was no additional somewhat personal quest required to get it is one of the biggest problems I have with the story at large. Because I do agree that Scanlan got the short end of the stick there. Not the shortest, that one goes to Vex, but a very close second.)

    If anything, when it comes to sharing knowledge and keeping secrets, I don’t think the scales are tipped towards either of them, which is why the most compelling point to me here is Whitestone and the de Rolo’s connection to Ioun – the same connection that made Vex get her patron.

    An Analysis on Secrets

    spicedupdruid:

    Sprigg, when referring to the things he might have wanted at the time of meeting them, calls Percy Secrets. As the key to Ioun, Sprigg would not want Secrets, but at the time he also didn’t want Intelligence. He wanted Power, the Power to get out of his prison, mentally of course, before he could give them Intelligence. Never at any point did he talk to Percy for a length of time unless specifically addressed by Percy, never paying mind to Secrets unless Secrets payed any attention to him. 

    Keep reading

    Oh wow, you wrote this just as I wrote the complete opposite! Cool.

    Though I have to fundamentally disagree on most of the things you say about Percy and secrets. The fact that his full name and Whitestone ever mattered that way was because the narrative caused that to happen, and once it was apparent that it was going to become relevant, he told them all he knew about it.

    Same goes for Orthax. Percy had no idea what was going on until Orthax literally appeared. Yes, the dream not being just that should have been apparent at some point. And that point was when he started smoking, the names vanished from the gun, and finally when Orthax manifested himself. All within a timespan of three days.

    And he never actively tried to conceal any of that. He just didn’t know what was going on there himself, not to mention that Orthax was also seriously affecting his mental state and judgement at the time, something he admitted to in the extent he was capable of, and asked the others to be on the look-out for.

    The point about Craven Edge is fair. That was pretty shitty of him. But that is another case in which Percy didn’t really lie when asked about it or tried to conceal anything, even bringing it up when Grog started acting strange about the skull. Also, he didn’t try to conceal it afterwards and tried to help in whatever way he could – same as Scanlan. Still, that one is fair as far as Percy being callous when it comes to knowledge is concerned.

    The marriage was not only Percy’s secret to keep. We don’t know their reasons yet. But much like his name and personal trauma, those are secrets I think everyone is entitled to keep. You don’t owe anyone insight into your personal matters.

    And you say that all of these things fucked the party over, yet the only thing Percy really is to blame for here/had any influence over was the Craven Edge situation. Whitestone could have been just as irrelevant as Scanlan’s mother’s name, depending on where the narrative took them. It wasn’t, so Percy explained it.

    The marriage reveal would have been humorous or at least not even remotely as big of a deal as it is if the plot hadn’t exploded. And it didn’t really come out during the confrontation with Pelor, that still sounded like a betrothal, it came out when Scanlan forced the issue while Percy and Vex were completely content to just not to spare Vax and Keyleth whatever pain could be spared at this point.

    So most of these things – Craven Edge excluded – were either very personal matters that Percy always did share once they became relevant, or was just simply never asked about.

    Much in the same vein as Scanlan was never asked about his secrets (until he was, repeatedly actually). We don’t know what happened pre-stream, but it sure doesn’t seem like he volunteered any information on his background or mother. NO ONE in the group did, for that matter. The twins never mentioned their mother’s connection to Thordak, Keyleth only mentioned her visions and backstory as it became relevant, and Pike was the only one who knew about Grog’s backstory in regards to Kevdak until it became relevant. Anyone’s personal business has always been shared according to a “need to know” policy.

    And if we are willing to extend this courtesy to everyone else, why not Percy?

    In addition, saying that keeping his Suude business secret didn’t affect the group is also purely circumstancial. Consuming drugs before getting into a combat situation in which other people rely on you in not a harmless secret to keep. Neither is the extent of your dealings with who you assume to be criminal drug dealers. Sure, no one died directly because of that, but taking unknown substances before a combat situation is almost as callous as handing out a speaking sword.

    And Scanlan’s secrets did harm the party, in a big way, and for a very long time. Everyone was positively devastated after he unloaded on them prior to his departure. More people were hurt when he concealed himself when he returned.

    So in that regard, I don’t think the scales are tipped in either of their favor, really. And to be fair, I think Ioun is a less than ideal fit for either of them. Erathis is better for Percy but has somehow vanished from the narrative, and there are plenty other gods and domains more fitting for Scanlan than academical knowledge. His kind of intelligence is more related to streets than to libraries.