enderon

These are all very fair points, and I will give to you.
And apart from any actual canon info argument, there are a lot of us who are pushing for Scanlan cause we really want him to actually get something in way of plot focus and backstory, whereas we’re very tired of Percy getting a lot of the spotlight and focus and aren’t really looking forward to even more characterization for him. But that’s unrelated to any argument,

enderon

just part of the explanation for why so many of us are pushing for Scanlan in place of Percy

I feel you there. Though I’d rather see Scanlan with someone who actually fits him than just who is available right now. Pigeonholing him into this is just another disservice to his character.

An Analysis on Secrets

spicedupdruid:

vohalika:

spicedupdruid:

Sprigg, when referring to the things he might have wanted at the time of meeting them, calls Percy Secrets. As the key to Ioun, Sprigg would not want Secrets, but at the time he also didn’t want Intelligence. He wanted Power, the Power to get out of his prison, mentally of course, before he could give them Intelligence. Never at any point did he talk to Percy for a length of time unless specifically addressed by Percy, never paying mind to Secrets unless Secrets payed any attention to him.

Keep reading

Oh wow, you wrote this just as I wrote the complete opposite! Cool.

Though I have to fundamentally disagree on most of the things you say about Percy and secrets. The fact that his full name and Whitestone ever mattered that way was because the narrative caused that to happen, and once it was apparent that it was going to become relevant, he told them all he knew about it.

Same goes for Orthax. Percy had no idea what was going on until Orthax literally appeared. Yes, the dream not being just that should have been apparent at some point. And that point was when he started smoking, the names vanished from the gun, and finally when Orthax manifested himself. All within a timespan of three days.

And he never actively tried to conceal any of that. He just didn’t know what was going on there himself, not to mention that Orthax was also seriously affecting his mental state and judgement at the time, something he admitted to in the extent he was capable of, and asked the others to be on the look-out for.

The point about Craven Edge is fair. That was pretty shitty of him. But that is another case in which Percy didn’t really lie when asked about it or tried to conceal anything, even bringing it up when Grog started acting strange about the skull. Also, he didn’t try to conceal it afterwards and tried to help in whatever way he could – same as Scanlan. Still, that one is fair as far as Percy being callous when it comes to knowledge is concerned.

The marriage was not only Percy’s secret to keep. We don’t know their reasons yet. But much like his name and personal trauma, those are secrets I think everyone is entitled to keep. You don’t owe anyone insight into your personal matters.

And you say that all of these things fucked the party over, yet the only thing Percy really is to blame for here/had any influence over was the Craven Edge situation. Whitestone could have been just as irrelevant as Scanlan’s mother’s name, depending on where the narrative took them. It wasn’t, so Percy explained it.

The marriage reveal would have been humorous or at least not even remotely as big of a deal as it is if the plot hadn’t exploded. And it didn’t really come out during the confrontation with Pelor, that still sounded like a betrothal, it came out when Scanlan forced the issue while Percy and Vex were completely content to just not to spare Vax and Keyleth whatever pain could be spared at this point.

So most of these things – Craven Edge excluded – were either very personal matters that Percy always did share once they became relevant, or was just simply never asked about.

Much in the same vein as Scanlan was never asked about his secrets (until he was, repeatedly actually). We don’t know what happened pre-stream, but it sure doesn’t seem like he volunteered any information on his background or mother. NO ONE in the group did, for that matter. The twins never mentioned their mother’s connection to Thordak, Keyleth only mentioned her visions and backstory as it became relevant, and Pike was the only one who knew about Grog’s backstory in regards to Kevdak until it became relevant. Anyone’s personal business has always been shared according to a “need to know” policy.

And if we are willing to extend this courtesy to everyone else, why not Percy?

In addition, saying that keeping his Suude business secret didn’t affect the group is also purely circumstancial. Consuming drugs before getting into a combat situation in which other people rely on you in not a harmless secret to keep. Neither is the extent of your dealings with who you assume to be criminal drug dealers. Sure, no one died directly because of that, but taking unknown substances before a combat situation is almost as callous as handing out a speaking sword.

And Scanlan’s secrets did harm the party, in a big way, and for a very long time. Everyone was positively devastated after he unloaded on them prior to his departure. More people were hurt when he concealed himself when he returned.

So in that regard, I don’t think the scales are tipped in either of their favor, really. And to be fair, I think Ioun is a less than ideal fit for either of them. Erathis is better for Percy but has somehow vanished from the narrative, and there are plenty other gods and domains more fitting for Scanlan than academical knowledge. His kind of intelligence is more related to streets than to libraries.

While I didn’t really expect this, I can’t say I’m not happy about getting a response in return.

I know I missed things, and might not have seen everything regarding both of them and their respective narratives. I forgot some instances of each of them doing something and kind of blanked at other things because I am honestly really shit at analyzing things. I kind of just wanted to try it out, even if I failed.

I feel as though Erathis is either not a god here at all, or she is Ioun. Thats the only vibe im getting, but usually I tend to be wrong.

I don’t really have anything to debate you with right now, I’m just happy to have gotten some form of debate and a deeper analysis of both people as well as the group on things.

I kind of just want Ioun to choose, since she is injured and the most in danger if she gives someone her power. I want a god to actually have a choice, interestingly enough, because Pelor was impassive and creepy.

Yay, I’m happy to get responses as well 🙂 especially when they are actually civil.

And I don’t think you fail at analysis at all, we just have different points of view on this issue.

Erathis was mentioned as a goddess, she’s the one Keeper Yennen is a priest to (The Lady’s Chamber temple), but the fact that she was brought up so little that you assumed her and Ioun were the same person is kind of the reason I don’t think she’s going to matter in this arc. If she does, I’m all for it.

And yes, choosing would be nice. Pelor was… I mean, I will defend Vex as his champion with my dying breath, but that was mostly a result of her never getting a character arc herself and this is the best she got. Well. And the fact that shitty, disapproving father figures are kind of her thing. What a great theme that is.

Except that Ioun isn’t about ‘academic knowledge and libraries’, she’s about knowledge and truths and sharing that knowledge out to the world, making at accessable for everyone, which is what bards do, the story telling of bards actually being the original way to share knowledge before books became a big thing. And Percy isn’t one to ‘share’ his knowledge, for very good reason he mostly keeps what he knows and has learned to himself rather than sharing.

enderon

And also, yes, Sprigg’s focus on Scanlan is very important, as things like that don’t just happen for no reason, not in this story. The connection there is less about Sprigg being left alone, but that emphasis that he RAN AWAY and his companions suffered for it, something we know Scanlan feels guilty for doing, also the tidbit about Sprigg’s companion being killed by hobgoblins, a little parallel to Scanlan’s own mother being killed by goblins,

enderon

a moment that severely messed him up. Also, Scanlan isn’t an idiot. Percy is the ‘smart one’, but there have been many times where Scanlan has been called to for information because, as an older, wl traveled bard, he has quite a lot of worldly knowledge. And this is not the only time Scanlan has used his Ioun stone. He used it before to find Kamaljiori, a server of Ioun, who also, lo and behold, was the one that gave them Mythcarver, the vestige that Scanlan uses.

Ioun isn’t exactly the goddess of streetsmarts either. Scanlan is knowledgable, but as a traveller rather than a scholar. Any time he was called upon for a knowledge roll, he knew stuff because he picked it up here and there, not because he actively went out looking for it.

His way of being a bard is also usually more about being an entertainer, singing and performing, rather than sharing stories. That’s also not what Dr. Dranzel’s troupe seemed to be doing. And the entertainment part of Bard-dom has an entirely different deity assigned to it. Or should have, at least. As I mentioned, the amount of gods mentioned in the story is very slim compared to what is actually available in D&D.

I also said that the parallels between Sprigg and Scanlan are very on the nose, and pointing those out is valid… I just don’t find it very compelling and almost forced, in a way. I know people feel the same way about what happened with Pelor and I disagree on that count. Now Sprigg’s performance was beautiful and the entire sequence was amazing, don’t get me wrong, but all the similarities between Scanlan and Sprigg don’t really tie into Sprigg’s connection to Ioun, either, or at least not in a way we have been told about yet.

Yes, Sprigg is the key to her and so kind of everything about him is relevant in regards to Ioun in a way, but I don’t think the parallels between him and Scanlan are in any relation to his role as the key. The only things actively hinting at his role were what Pelor told them about (person living in the area), the fact that he had a house full of books (the contents of which he also wasn’t exactly happy to openly share with people), and seemingly a disdain for the goddess, hinting at a history with her he hasn’t talked about yet.

And Percy has researched things with the intent of sharing them. He was the key reasearcher and source of information when it came to the trip to the 9 hells, and his knowledge check brought them on the track towards Raishan again. He was allowed to roll for knowledge throughout the campaign just for being a nerd.

So Scanlan used the Ioun stone once or twice, an anon said he also used it around a dragon hoard, and I think I faintly remember something like that happening when they were looking for Umbrasyl. That is literally fewer times than Pike’s armor has been activated, and that didn’t exactly make her a champion for Pelor, either. Partially because she was already taken, true, but Pelor didn’t even allude to that.

(Scanlan just being handed his vestige by the Sphinx (whose name was, by the way, figured out by Percy) may or may not be relevant, but the fact that there was no additional somewhat personal quest required to get it is one of the biggest problems I have with the story at large. Because I do agree that Scanlan got the short end of the stick there. Not the shortest, that one goes to Vex, but a very close second.)

If anything, when it comes to sharing knowledge and keeping secrets, I don’t think the scales are tipped towards either of them, which is why the most compelling point to me here is Whitestone and the de Rolo’s connection to Ioun – the same connection that made Vex get her patron.

An Analysis on Secrets

spicedupdruid:

Sprigg, when referring to the things he might have wanted at the time of meeting them, calls Percy Secrets. As the key to Ioun, Sprigg would not want Secrets, but at the time he also didn’t want Intelligence. He wanted Power, the Power to get out of his prison, mentally of course, before he could give them Intelligence. Never at any point did he talk to Percy for a length of time unless specifically addressed by Percy, never paying mind to Secrets unless Secrets payed any attention to him.

Keep reading

Oh wow, you wrote this just as I wrote the complete opposite! Cool.

Though I have to fundamentally disagree on most of the things you say about Percy and secrets. The fact that his full name and Whitestone ever mattered that way was because the narrative caused that to happen, and once it was apparent that it was going to become relevant, he told them all he knew about it.

Same goes for Orthax. Percy had no idea what was going on until Orthax literally appeared. Yes, the dream not being just that should have been apparent at some point. And that point was when he started smoking, the names vanished from the gun, and finally when Orthax manifested himself. All within a timespan of three days.

And he never actively tried to conceal any of that. He just didn’t know what was going on there himself, not to mention that Orthax was also seriously affecting his mental state and judgement at the time, something he admitted to in the extent he was capable of, and asked the others to be on the look-out for.

The point about Craven Edge is fair. That was pretty shitty of him. But that is another case in which Percy didn’t really lie when asked about it or tried to conceal anything, even bringing it up when Grog started acting strange about the skull. Also, he didn’t try to conceal it afterwards and tried to help in whatever way he could – same as Scanlan. Still, that one is fair as far as Percy being callous when it comes to knowledge is concerned.

The marriage was not only Percy’s secret to keep. We don’t know their reasons yet. But much like his name and personal trauma, those are secrets I think everyone is entitled to keep. You don’t owe anyone insight into your personal matters.

And you say that all of these things fucked the party over, yet the only thing Percy really is to blame for here/had any influence over was the Craven Edge situation. Whitestone could have been just as irrelevant as Scanlan’s mother’s name, depending on where the narrative took them. It wasn’t, so Percy explained it.

The marriage reveal would have been humorous or at least not even remotely as big of a deal as it is if the plot hadn’t exploded. And it didn’t really come out during the confrontation with Pelor, that still sounded like a betrothal, it came out when Scanlan forced the issue while Percy and Vex were completely content to just not to spare Vax and Keyleth whatever pain could be spared at this point.

So most of these things – Craven Edge excluded – were either very personal matters that Percy always did share once they became relevant, or was just simply never asked about.

Much in the same vein as Scanlan was never asked about his secrets (until he was, repeatedly actually). We don’t know what happened pre-stream, but it sure doesn’t seem like he volunteered any information on his background or mother. NO ONE in the group did, for that matter. The twins never mentioned their mother’s connection to Thordak, Keyleth only mentioned her visions and backstory as it became relevant, and Pike was the only one who knew about Grog’s backstory in regards to Kevdak until it became relevant. Anyone’s personal business has always been shared according to a “need to know” policy.

And if we are willing to extend this courtesy to everyone else, why not Percy?

In addition, saying that keeping his Suude business secret didn’t affect the group is also purely circumstancial. Consuming drugs before getting into a combat situation in which other people rely on you in not a harmless secret to keep. Neither is the extent of your dealings with who you assume to be criminal drug dealers. Sure, no one died directly because of that, but taking unknown substances before a combat situation is almost as callous as handing out a speaking sword.

And Scanlan’s secrets did harm the party, in a big way, and for a very long time. Everyone was positively devastated after he unloaded on them prior to his departure. More people were hurt when he concealed himself when he returned.

So in that regard, I don’t think the scales are tipped in either of their favor, really. And to be fair, I think Ioun is a less than ideal fit for either of them. Erathis is better for Percy but has somehow vanished from the narrative, and there are plenty other gods and domains more fitting for Scanlan than academical knowledge. His kind of intelligence is more related to streets than to libraries.

About Percy, Scanlan, and Ioun

I’m trying to be fair here and really understand where people are coming from, but… I really don’t get why everyone seems to be so ride or die about Scanlan being Ioun’s champion?

Okay, from what I understand, he has an Ioun stone. That I don’t really remember him using ever since Tiberius traded it in for the circlet. I think last episode was the first time he actually pulled it out since then.

Sprigg called him intelligence, is a gnome, and has a connection to Ioun. Okay. I see how that is leading. Though to be honest, what we saw of him actually reminded me more of what Keyleth’s future is going to look like? Especially considering the emotional state she is now on? If there’s anyone most likely to be alone for 39 years, it’s her. Her enormous lifespan will all but ensure she will be very, very lonely, and it had previously been said that her best ending would be like Yoda, hanging out far away from civilization as some sort of woods witch. And, I mean Sprigg made as much of a connection with Keyleth, it seemed to me.

Still. If Sprigg was supposed to be the gigantic neon arrow pointing at Scanlan for Ioun, oookay. Scanlan seems like too much of a people person to find the goddess whose realm is a neverending library particularly appealing, and the only book he has ever shown interest in was a porn book. Okay, no, also the Tome of Leadership for the stats increase. So that’s two. He’s not the booksmart type, he’s the cunning and thinking on his feet type.

Sure, maybe that juxtaposition is supposed to be the point here. Maybe another point is that he is the teller of stories, and Ioun is the one that stores peoples’ life stories. Which seems to play into his insecurities about always being the story teller, but never part of the story. But hey, he wouldn’t be the only character whose meaningful development has been shut out by the narrative.

I just don’t get why people find that compelling. And I’m actively calling for debate here! Convince me!

Part of this weirdness is probably due to the fact that there are very few gods that have been relevant to the narrative so far. Sarenrae and the Raven Queen, of course. Their champions were never up for debate. Melora and Kord are kind of equally locked in. Unless Keyleth prefers to go full rage mode Barbarian and just violently refuse all the god stuff from now on, or go for someone more chaotic and destructive like Umberlee or Talos.

…Who may or may not exist in this setting. Back to the list. I will defend Pelor as patron of Vex until my dying day. Sehanine would have also been nice and more about her as a person than about the home she has found because of her husband (it feels weird not to write boyfriend), but hey, when does Vex ever get anything to be about her that she or Percy have not actively forced out of the narrative.

I’m pretty sure the only other gods that have been even mentioned were Ioun and Erathis. And don’t get me wrong, I am totally for Erathis being Percy’s patron. She is objectively the best fit – if she is at all relevant in this. She has literally not been mentioned in ages. Keeper Yennen is technically a priest of hers, but that was never really relevant, and Pelor told them to go find his sister in law without even mentioning his wife, so…

Percival is very much the book nerd, the one who volunteers for research and goes to libraries, and canonically has spent his pre-trauma days accumulating academic knowledge in addition to tinkering. This episode wasn’t the first time he was enthusiastic about a library.

Also, something people seem to have forgotten, his family literally died because they had a shrine to Ioun in their basement. That’s what the ziggurats were. We got descriptions of her defaced statues down there.

Which ties into another point. Ioun is the direct enemy of Vecna the same way the Raven Queen’s direct enemy is Orcus. Which is why Ioun’s temples were defaced in Vecna’s name in the first place. The fact that Whitestone is the place where Ioun was wounded is also really significant in that regard.

And Percy as a person has always been very preoccupied with preserving history and culture and the memory of things. See his reasoning for keeping Westruun running. This is probably based on the fact that memories is all that is left of 90% of his family (because they had an Ioun temple in their basement that was defaced in Vecna’s name). And that was what he was so delighted about when discovering Ioun’s library – it all matters, all of a sudden. People will be remembered, even if it is only as a book in this library. Which is also why he tried to find a book on Vesper – to make sure his family is remembered somewhere, somehow, for far longer than he and Cass will be around to do that.

Saying he doesn’t qualify as Ioun’s champion because she is all about freely accessing knowledge and Percy has kept a total of 2 secrets which didn’t even remain secrets (his marriage and the gun stuff) kind of rings hollow when at the same time, you claim that Scanlan is a dream fit despite being the one to lie and deceive the most and keeping the most things hidden out of the party, and has frequently attempted to twist, change, or delete a person’s memories for his own convenience.

How does that make him a better champion for Ioun than someone who made a dnagerous discovery and figured it’d be best not to share it with the world? Basically the same thing Ioun did with the knowledge of how to ascend to godhood, you know, the reason they are seeking her out right now to begin with.

On a related note, I don’t get how Scanlan is Intelligence but Percy is Secrets. You can switch that around and it makes just as much sense. And if THAT what it all comes down to, I looked it up, there is only a single god-like entity associated with secrets, and that’s fucking Vecna. As mentioned above, the reason 90% of Percy’s family is dead. So I feel a bit weird about using that to determine what gods everyone gets. Keyleth’s god most definitely isn’t related to love.

(Again, if Erathis suddenly becomes relevant again, I am all for Percy being her champion instead. Though I still think finding a god who is more of a people person and less about libraries and academic knowledge for Scanlan would be a waaaaaay better fit. Finding him a god of poetry and song would be a better fit, but that also kind of undercuts his personal crisis. Maybe a family god? Travellers? Luck? All better fits, we just have never heard of them before.)

Disregarding all other ship discourse, you just have to love the fact that Percy’s first reaction when panicked has consistently been talking about how much he loves Vex, even when no one else knew about the specifics of their relationship yet. It happened during the Thordak fight, it happened after the reverse gravity ceiling of undead, and it happened with Pelor.

Theories for the elopement

out-there-on-the-maroon:

Some of these are mine, some of these are theories I’ve seen bandied about.

(Long post below the cut)

Keep reading

I’m going to count out the pregnancy scare. Whenever asked about it, Matt assured that no one would ever roll for baby and that there are cantrips against that, and I mean, it is heavily implied that Vex at the very least has been around the block a few times. She’d know how to take care of things. Also, Taliesin specifically has stated they deal with that kind of roll too much in real life and this is his escapism, so I really, REALLY don’t see either of them writing that into their story voluntarily.

The archaic Whitestone law is what I live for, technically. But I don’t think that’s very likely, because “we didn’t really want to but kind of had to!” is a very good reason, and not one I’d see them hiding, not even with Vex’s last words to Vax.

What I can see happening in regards to the city of Whitestone being apparently in the know, my guess would be that their Lord all but moved in with a woman he was in a very obvious relationship with, so, clutch my pearls, of course they’re married. Or at least the town made an innocent assumption that no one bothered correcting before or after the actual elopement happened.

I actually have no trouble buying the statement that they wanted to keep it private and between the two of them. They are both veeeery private people. If Percy hadn’t panicked and blabbered at the beginning of the Thordak fight, or made out with Vex in front of everyone after the reverse gravity undead scare, who knows whether the group would even have explicitly known about their relationship any time soon.

So given how they’re both very public figures, already living like a married couple anyway, and nothing really changes except for her last name if she wants to and maybe some legal things, they just decided to go for it and sign a piece of paper. And then waiting for the best moment to tell people, when they were all together again, Scanlan included. Exhibit A: Percy saying that Grog very specifically didn’t have to get them a present, implying that a distaste for the pomp and circumstance of weddings was most likely a factor. Exhibit B: Vex trying to tell Vax immediately after Scanlan is back but chickening out.

Waiting for the right moment is a bit stupid, I know, but it always kind of made sense to me? Especially considering how the two of them just were never about sharing all their feelings and inner workings with the world.

…Of course, the aborted story arc is, as always when it comes to Vex, exceedingly likely.

Funny thing about tumblr

This might be the only place where you see more people complaining about people complaining about Keyleth than you see people actually complaining about Keyleth.

Which doesn’t mean there is none of that elsewhere. We are just the top layer of hell, it goes all the way down via twitter and reddit down to the twitch chat and the youtube comment sections. I’m not entirely sure which one of those would be the deepest layer of hell, though.

ledamemangociana:

somebody said that maybe vex and percy did the thing because of a pregancy “scare” (STOP EITHER WORSHIPPING OR DEMONIZING PREGNANCY, IT IS NOT A CONSEQUENCE, IT IS JUST A THING THAT HAPPENS, AND IT IS A REWARD ONLY IF THE PPL INVOLVED WANT IT TO BE, THAT’S NOT FOR ANYONE ELSE TO DECIDE, THANK YOUUUU) and it made a very unpleasant shiver run down my spine so allow me to offer up a diff reason

vex and percy did the thing instead of held a ceremony because they both had so much to do during their year off, almost all of which had to do with rebuilding whitestone. there was no time – and probably not enough capital and resources, anyway – to do a big thing, not when Percy was focused on taking over a lot of the things that his younger sister had to deal with while he was off adventuring, and not when vex was focused on building up her Grey Hunt and building her house and putting up the bakery and studying up on Orcus, and doing diplomatic things for/with Syngorn. maybe it was just one of those snap decisions in the middle of the night, when they were just too happy to not be running for their lives and just be able to spend some time to just be together, and one of them just went “hey, here’s a crazy idea.” maybe they did the thing because it had to just be a quick thing or else they’d never be able to do it.

and maybe they kept it a secret from the rest of VM because they didn’t know how anyone would react – not that VM would react super violently but because it was a decision they made on their own for themselves. maybe they didn’t tell at first because it was their prerogative. maybe they didn’t tell because they wanted it to be a surprise at the end of everything, something more to celebrate once they had won. maybe they didn’t tell coz they wanted to keep it a secret thing they could hold on to for themselves that wouldn’t affect or be affected by anyone else in VM. maybe they didn’t tell because they liked having a secret that’s all their own, even if it’s something as small or as big as this. or maybe they’ve been meaning to tell for a while but just never found the right time, and then there were no more right times to be had.

idk maybe them keeping it a secret isn’t quite as big a deal as we think it is. maybe we’re reacting to it being a secret only because they were reacting to it as a secret.

Also, Matt explicitly said he isn’t going to make anyone roll for pregnancy, so the only reason for this to happen would be for the players deciding to do so. And they kind of have cantrips to avoid pregnancy? And Taliesin has gone on record on how he doesn’t want stuff like this in his escapism?

I’m not sure what to tell you guys, either your fascination with Vex’s womb is kind of creepy, or that there are prefectly vaild reasons to get married completely without pregnancy being a factor. It’s kind of sad that that’s apparently a thing people need to be told, though.

Taking bets now, regarding missing #Ham4All performance.

Taliesin will back out on the grounds that he was in Marisha’s video. He popped in on the bottom right corner. Everyone will give him shit that this doesn’t count, and it will be another Halloween Costume situation.
They do a group thing tonight since Ashley did tag the whole cast. Taliesin will say that counts as his contribution.
Taliesin is currently feverently scouring the Hamilton soundtrack for the most goth or extra thing to sing. And I mean sing. He will not rap.
Or maybe he will just for the hell of it, which might get us an even whiter, more dad-like rap than the one Liam did.
Maybe his contribution will be so extra, it will be from the Off-Broadway version or the mixtape
Actually, I could totally see him do that.

Which begs the question, what is the most extra and goth thing Taliesin could contribute?